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$Unique_ID{USH01613} $Pretitle{132} $Title{The Nixon Tapes April 17, 1973. (2:46pm - 3:49pm)} $Subtitle{} $Author{Nixon, Richard M.} $Affiliation{Senate Judiciary Committee} $Subject{nixon pres peterson inaudible dean right that's say am ehrlichman} $Volume{} $Date{1974} $Log{} Book: The Nixon Tapes Author: Nixon, Richard M. Affiliation: Senate Judiciary Committee Date: 1974 April 17, 1973. (2:46pm - 3:49pm) Meeting: President Nixon and Henry Petersen, Oval Office Steward: Mr. Petersen Pres. Nixon: Right. Pres. Nixon: All right - he can come in. Steward: Have him come in now, Sir? Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: Hi. H. Peterson: Mr. President, how are you? Pres. Nixon: Sit down, sit down. H. Peterson: Thank you, Sir. Pres. Nixon: (Inaudible) meeting - in the middle of the night for a change. The, ah, anything new I need to know? H. Peterson: No, Sir, ah. Pres. Nixon: Don't. As a matter of fact, I don't want you really to tell me anything out of the Grand Jury unless you think I need to know it. If it corroborates something or anybody here I need to know it - otherwise I don't want to know about it. H. Peterson: No, Sir. Pres. Nixon: That's good, because I find - Incidentally, if I might - I don't think I like - for example, I haven't been in touch with John Mitchell but he might call me sometime and I don't want to be a position of ever saying anything, see? H. Peterson: Well, I understand how you feel - its a Pres. Nixon: I guess it would be legal for me to know? H. Peterson: Well yes, I think it is legal for you to know. Pres. Nixon: Is it? Well, but don't do it, right. The problem that concerns me some there (inaudible) - I did see Rogers last night as you know - H. Peterson: Yes, Sir. Pres. Nixon: I wanted to get an independent judgment on this when I was talking (inaudible) H. Peterson: He is an admirable man. Pres. Nixon: Able fellow - was a fine Attorney General, and so forth. I gave it all to him with the bark off and (inaudible). And, his views are somewhat different from yours and I am sure you would respect them - perhaps mine as well - because it is a tough call. H. Peterson: Indeed so. Pres. Nixon: I might say somewhat different - I don't mean in terms of where you come out eventually, H. Peterson: I understand Pres. Nixon: but in terms of timing, and so forth, and so forth. First, there is a problem of - oh - which I don't want you to get in the wringer on this but, the leaks from the Grand Jury you remember I have already mentioned that to you before. H. Peterson: Yes sir. Pres. Nixon: I think you have to know that Dean has talked very freely to Mitchell. H. Peterson: I am sure that's so. Pres. Nixon: And Mitchell, of course, is - I can imagine, I don't know, but I think you should know that. Whether he has talked to others about that, I do not know. H. Peterson: Well he feels a very close personal relationship with Mitchell. I am almost positive of that - Pres. Nixon: The point is I think you will have to assume that Dean in this period, who was basically sort of in charge of it for the White House (and the rest of us were out campaigning - traveling, so forth, so on) will probably have told people that he has information from the Grand Jury. Now you just have to evaluate that yourself. I just don't want the Department of Justice, and you particularly, after your, ah - the way you have broken your - H. Peterson: Mr. President - I am sure that is so. Pres. Nixon: I don't want to get embarrassed: see? H. Peterson: I have no concern about that. Pres. Nixon: After the pumping of Rogers - I am not enough of a criminal lawyer to know enough about it - but Rogers was greatly concerned about the leaks from the Grand Jury. He asked me that - he said H. Peterson: Well, two things are occurring - one, Magruder is talking, Magruder is going around trying to make peace with each - in other words, he will come in to me and say look I am in this bind and I have to testify and there is nothing I can do but I got to tell the complete truth about the others but with respect to you I am doing the best I can. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. H. Peterson: Which is the pitch be is making, Now, Pres. Nixon: You've talked to -? H. Peterson: We have talked to his lawyers about that. With respect to Dean - it doesn't surprise me that he has gone to Mitchell. He's, he's, Pres. Nixon: Understand what I am driving at? H. Peterson: He's probably getting information from the Grand Jury. Pres. Nixon: What I am concerned about is leaks and leaks from the Grand Jury, not now but leaks during the period - the summer. H. Peterson: Oh, Oh yes. Pres. Nixon: That's the point - during - June, July, August, September, and so forth that is the point that I mean, that a - H. Peterson: I don't think that is a critical problem so far as I am concerned, Mr. President for this reason. Pres. Nixon: See we don't want - after all this agony - I don't want the - well - the man that I'm relying on to be any kind of a (inaudible) position. Pres. Nixon: Well no, you've got your life (inaudible) ahead. H. Peterson: Mr. President, I don't to be in that position. H. Peterson: Let me tell you - when I spoke to Dean and I for example, am not going to, I'm not worried about this, I Pres. Nixon: I just want to be sure that - H. Peterson: Well, let me make three points - when I say this, and it's almost awkward to say this Pres. Nixon: That is why Rogers for example is recommending a special counsel - H. Peterson: Right Pres. Nixon: he is very much afraid that anybody who has been handling the damm thing up to this point is going to have somebody - H. Peterson: Well, there, ah Pres. Nixon: (Inaudible) feel about that? H. Peterson: Well with respect to John Dean - it is almost awkward to say it - my conversation with Dean touched upon three things: (1) leaks - which frankly I tell you I don't take very seriously - see what I mean - that's part and parcel of the Washington business; Pres. Nixon: Yeah. H. Peterson: (the second) was Dean's personal involvement - that is to say Pres. Nixon: What did he do. H. Peterson: Well we didn't suspect him, but what did he do with respect to the securing of the equipment and records in Hunt's office in connection with the motion to suppress where he was a potential witness for the defense on the motion to suppress. And the third was status reports - now from those status reports, I spoke to him in terms of ultimates. Magruder was a good witness in his own behalf. Magruder - the Grand Jury didn't believe what he said about the money - but not the testimony itself - the result of the testimony. So I don't have any problem. Pres. Nixon: That has no problem of (inaudible)? H. Peterson: No sir, and I can disclosure to an attorney for the government in the course of my work. Dean was in addition to Counsel for the President, obviously an attorney for the government - and there is not anything improper in that. Pres. Nixon: Right - well good, I am relieved to hear that. H. Peterson: Now, politically if someone wants to say - as they said to Pat Gray - you shouldn't have been talking to John Dean. Well, there is no way out of that. Pres. Nixon: You see that is why I am raising the point. H. Peterson: There is no way out of that. Pres. Nixon: That was perfectly proper for Pat Gray to talk to Dean you know - as a matter of fact, it would be improper for him not to. H. Peterson: Indeed Pres. Nixon: . . . Dean was running the investigation of the damn thing and I certainly expected him to get all of the FBI information he could. H. Peterson: Yes. Pres. Nixon: What the hell is the FBI for? H. Peterson: That's right. You know - I don't Pres. Nixon: Gray got a bad rap on that H. Peterson: I don't think that - that's demagoguery I think - I don't take that seriously. Pres. Nixon: That's right - quite right. The second point is that with regard to our statement now - the one we talked about yesterday - I am working on it today - I don't know whether I can get it ready - for probably this afternoon - but I will give you a call if I do have one. I have decided - I want to tell you - roughly it is sort of like the one we worked on yesterday - but also covers the Ervin Committee too. We worked out a deal with them now where everything on executive session, no, everything on executive privilege we have in Executive Session. H. Peterson: Right. Pres. Nixon: The right of executive privilege will be reserved and all witnesses will appear in public session - that's the way the deal was signed. So they will take all of our people in executive sessions discuss matters - you know like they bring - the judge brings the lawyers around the bench. H. Peterson: I understand - yes sir. Pres. Nixon: Does that sound like a good procedure to you? H. Peterson: Yes sir - I've only got one reservation and we alluded to this earlier in connection with the Magruder plea, and that is - whether or not Senator Ervin will be willing to hold off public sessions that might interfere with the right of fair trial for the others. Pres. Nixon: Well you and I know it shouldn't but I mean my point is I've got to say our (inaudible) should work for the (inaudible) at the White House on it, but that is your job. H. Peterson: OK. Just so there is nothing (inaudible) with it. Pres. Nixon: I don't want the damn Ervin Committee to go forward H. Peterson: All right. Okay Pres. Nixon: I think frankly if I were Mitchell I would be praying that the Committee did. H. Peterson: Yeah. It gives him delay if nothing else. Pres. Nixon: Correct. Delay! If the Committee gets up there and they will splash a lot of this - I mean McCord and all the rest - in there he's sure to get a change of venue for one thing. Secondly, the thing that he'd be (inaudible) of these days, seems to me, venue is the television and the rest, it's ah, I think the Ervin Committee would be highly irresponsible to move forward. H. Peterson: That's right Pres. Nixon: (inaudible) H. Peterson: That's right. Pres. Nixon: So they should drop the Committee investigation the day the Grand Jury took it up seriously. H. Peterson: Well your accommodation with the Committee makes my job much easier now. Pres. Nixon: Good - how's that? Because - H. Peterson: Well I think he would have been very suspicious if I had gone up there and there was still the possibility of some confrontation between you and he. Pres. Nixon: (inaudible) H. Peterson: No, because we still haven't gotten the assent from - Pres. Nixon: Sirica? H. Peterson: Well, not only Sirica but Magruder's lawyers - we are still waiting for them to come back. Pres. Nixon: It takes a long time - H. Peterson: Yes, sir. Pres. Nixon: Now with regard to my policy, I think you should know I thought it over a lot - where we come out in the end we shall see, but can be sure Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Dean naturally will have to go because he has admitted very deep complicity. Right? There will be no question about It. H. Peterson: I don't think that. Pres. Nixon: Haldeman and Ehrlichman at this point had (inaudible) with Rogers - I not only let him read what you had given me but then I elaborated everything I knew about this thing. His judgment is this that on Ehrlichman it is a very thin (inaudible) H. Peterson: Very thin indeed Pres. Nixon: never going to (inaudible) - he said particularly he said if they have any witnesses for the fact that he handed a packet to the Director of the FBI and Hunt didn't leave the country (inaudible) discussions. I don't know - I am not trying to judge it - but H. Peterson: No, I understand - I agree that it is very thin Pres. Nixon: They better have a damn lot more than that or they are not going to get Ehrlichman H. Peterson: That's right. Pres. Nixon: on that - they may get him on something else. And the other point was, that you made, was Dean said that he had talked - that Liddy had told him everything on June 19th. You remember? H. Peterson: Yes, sir. Pres. Nixon: Do you know when he told Ehrlichman? H. Peterson: No, sir. Pres. Nixon: In California after Ehrlichman had been there in March - February? - in March. H. Peterson: Dean told Ehrlichman then? Pres. Nixon: That's right. So, it is a curious thing as to - Gray's concern to me. I said Dean hasn't told you he didn't tell him ahead of Ehrlichman but I mean that he didn't run right over and tell him. H. Peterson: No, No Pres. Nixon: The point is that Dean conducted his investigation and did not come to Ehrlichman and say "look we have to go on Mitchell" because that's what that was really about. H. Peterson: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: Liddy had involved himself and subsequently said Mitchell and Magruder. That's what I understand to be the truth of the case. H. Peterson: Well what Liddy in effect said was - what he admitted was that he was present at the Watergate - Dean already knew from prior dealings that Liddy was involved; you see? Pres. Nixon: Oh, I see - present at Watergate? H. Peterson: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Oh, I thought he also - I thought you said - he told everything - that you had copies of everything. H. Peterson: Well I think that is correct He probably filled in the details but you recall at least from the meeting in February in Mitchell's office, Dean knew what Liddy was up to. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. H. Peterson: Because he had come back to Haldeman and said we should Pres. Nixon: Yeah H. Peterson: not be involved with that - Pres. Nixon: That's right - with that - (expletive deleted) H. Peterson: That's right. That's right. Pres. Nixon: (laughs) Pres. Nixon: Which makes it more credible when you use all salty words. H. Peterson: Laughter. Pres. Nixon: OK Now - this brings us to a basic command decision with regard - with regard to what you do about White House people. The main thing is (inaudible) and you can look at it in terms of the fact that anybody who this touches should go out - without - (inaudible). You can look at it in terms of the fact that if it touches them (inaudible) that clearly apart from whether or not anything legal stands up. Let's suppose just take Ehrlichman is a case in point - that this thing brought in by (inaudible) that proves to be (inaudible) don't get anything else on Ehrlichman then the question is that nevertheless that in itself would raise a cloud over Ehrlichman. That would mean that he would be no longer be useful. Therefore, your advice - on Sunday or least it was now - sack Haldeman, Ehrlichman and Dean now - all three - because in the one case Dean should know he has admitted complicity - in the other case there is a possibility of charges which may not be true and which may not be indictable but which from the standpoint of the public will so involve them that it will cut off their legs. And let me say I understand the point as well - the only thing is the question of how and when you do it - and as that I (inaudible). And so I have decided to handle each on an individual basis - and by that I mean that our policy generally will be that anyone who refused to cooperate will, of course, be sacked immediately. Anyone who is indicted at this time will be put on leave - indefinite leave - until he is tried. You don't - That is our system. Now, if you indict somebody, I will then put them on leave indefinitely which means he is out of a job - he'll have to go. What would happen in that instance I think, of course, is that most of the people that are involved here would resign immediately so that - I am just saying H. Peterson: I understand Pres. Nixon: That the least of the (inaudible) is that you are going on leave - the guy says - oh hell no, I can never come back after four or five months of trial. That's what we would say at this point. It gives them a chance. Now comes the gray area - if any charge is made publicly - you see - I don't mean in the Washington Post of the Los Angeles Times but I mean publicly by Magruder in open court - any charges are made (not released by the Grand Jury) publicly which corroborate in any way against anybody on the White House staff then he will be asked to take leave also. H. Peterson: Umm - uh Pres. Nixon: Then, of course, what will happen probably - I would predict - I know - they will come in and resign. I mean they will come in and say, look I can't do my job so I am going to go. But what I mean, the point is - my position is - indictment means - well, ah - failure to cooperate - you're fired; indictment means you are asked to take leave until you are cleared. Then the individual will say "I can't do my job" if he is a top individual, or if it is a secretary, for example. H. Peterson: Oh, yeah, I understand. Pres. Nixon: (inaudible) - The big three - Dean, Haldeman and Ehrlichman - and third, in the area of charges - charges are made - what I am thinking of here is Magruder -Magruder goes into open court - As I understand what will happen is you make a statement in open court which will name Mitchell for sure H. Peterson: Well Pres. Nixon: and might name Haldeman and might name Ehrlichman. Right? H. Peterson: Well what we propose to do is file a one count conspiracy indictment that would name Magruder and unindicted coconspirators. Pres. Nixon: And put their names in the indictment? H. Peterson: Yes sir. Pres. Nixon: Unindicted . . . H. Peterson: Co-conspirators. Then when the court questions the defendant with respect to the facts that reflect his guilt, Magruder then would be expounding on the indictment and in effect stating what the evidence was. Pres. Nixon: On the unindicted co-conspirators this is Magruder - but that would be on the Watergate side - that would be both before and after. Magruder is mainly before on this - H. Peterson: Well he is also involved in the obstruction. Pres. Nixon: He is, Fine, then he is - H. Peterson: Because he perjured himself before the Grand Jury - Pres. Nixon: Yep H. Peterson: . . . at the suggestion of others. Pres. Nixon: So what you would have on Magruder you would say we hereby indict Magruder and the following unindicted co-conspirators which means that an undicted . . . (explain to me what unindicted co-conspirators means). H. Peterson: That just means that for one reason or another we don't want to charge them at the time. For example, I am indicted - you're named as an unindicted co-conspirator. You are just as guilty as I am but you are a witness - we are not going to prosecute you. Pres. Nixon: I need to know that because . . . (inaudible) H. Peterson: But all those people that we name - we propose to name only to the extent that we feel we can corroborate. The one thing we can't afford to do is to name, for example, John Mitchell and then come up six months later without enough evidence to nail him. Pres. Nixon: Or for that matter - Ehrlichman. H. Peterson: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Or Haldeman or anybody else. H. Peterson: That's right. Pres. Nixon: In other words, you are going to put in there people you know you can indict. H. Peterson: That's right. Now - Pres. Nixon: Well then I'll (inaudible) - I can consider that a charge? H. Peterson: That's right. Pres. Nixon: That's right - in other words, if they're in that I would then say - anybody that was an unindicted co-conspirator would then be immediately put on leave H. Peterson: It would . . . Pres. Nixon: Get my point? H. Peterson: That's right. Pres. Nixon: That's what I'll tell them I will do. Now the other thing I want to tell you though that - and I say this strongly - I have thought about it a lot - I don't care what you do on immunity to Strachan or any other second people but you can't give immunity to any top people - not Dean - needless to say you don't want to to Haldeman or Ehrlichman. Dean is the counsel to the President - after the flap with Gray - I went over this with Rogers - he says - after your flap on the Gray thing and the rest - it would like that you re. H. Peterson: Right - you know why I asked Pres. Nixon: I just want you to know that you if give immunity but I will have to talk (inaudible). H. Peterson: OK, well, let me put it this way, I will not do that without your knowledge. If it is necessary for me to do that I will come to you first and then we can reach an agreement that yes you will have to disavow it and that was the decision of the prosecutor. I don't want to make that decision, Mr. President. I don't want to immunize John Dean; I think he is too high in the echelon but - it's a - Pres. Nixon: The prosecutor's got the right to make that decision? H. Peterson: Yes, sir Pres. Nixon: You better, I think. H. Peterson: . . . the point of it is, if it comes to a question of - Pres. Nixon: I think it would - look - because your close relationship with Dean - which has been very close - it would look like a straight deal - now that's just the way you've got to figure it. H. Peterson: That's right. Pres. Nixon: The prosecutor has got to know - I can say as far as the President is concerned if John Dean gets (inaudible) then I don't care - but Ehrlichman, Haldeman and all the rest (inaudible)- why the hell did we give him immunization and not the poor damn Cubans? It just doesn't sound right. H. Peterson: Right. Pres. Nixon: It doesn't sound right - it isn't going to sound good for you - because of your relationship - it isn't going to sound good for the President. H. Peterson: Ah, well I hope we don't have to do that - I would rather have a plea to a lesser offense by Dean. I think too that it's going to look awful. We are in no disagreement on that at all. Pres. Nixon: It would look awful, it really would, particularly . . . H. Peterson: The thing that scares the hell out of me is this - suppose Dean is the only key to Haldeman and Ehrlichman and the refusal to immunize Dean means that Haldeman and Ehrlichman go free. That is the decision that we are going to ultimately come down to. Pres. Nixon: Well you will have to come into me with what you've got (inaudible) then there. H. Peterson: I will Pres. Nixon: and let me handle Haldeman and Ehrlichman. H. Peterson: I will sir. Pres. Nixon: Do you get my point? H. Peterson: Yes, sir. Pres. Nixon: If it comes down to that - I may have to move on Haldeman and Ehrlichman - then for example you come to me and say look here's what - Look I am not going to do anything to Haldeman and Ehrlichman just because of what Dean says - I can't do that. Its got to be corroborated. H. Peterson: I agree with that. Pres. Nixon: Do you agree with that? H. Peterson: Yes sir - I am not going to do anything with those two unless it is corroborated either. Pres. Nixon: Dean is - I find, has told two or three different stories. I didn't realize it until lately. I guess when a guy is scared he doesn't - H. Peterson: He is a man under great pressure. Pres. Nixon: Sure, I fell for the poor - H. Peterson: So do I. He took a lot - he knows Pres. Nixon: He is a fine lawyer H. Peterson: A thirty-four year old man with a bright future - Pres. Nixon: Sure, he's worked his - and (inaudible) everything - I understand it, but I cannot, for example, in good conscience and, you can't in good conscience say that you are going to send Haldeman and Ehrlichman - or anybody for that matter - or Colson - down the tube on the uncorroborated evidence of John Dean. You see - so basically what your problem is and the problem of the prosecutors is to find some corroboration for Dean. H. Peterson: Precisely right. Pres. Nixon: If you come in to me with Dean plus corroboration and you tell me that - then we have a difficult decision on whether or not we want to immunize him H. Peterson: That the importance. Pres. Nixon: . . . or whether we have these fellows just leave. H. Peterson: That is the importance of Strachan. Pres. Nixon: It may be that in that instance - you see that is the other point - of course with Strachan you're (inaudible). Another way you can handle that - it occurs to me - is that - Haldeman & Ehrlichman - well let's take one, let's take Haldeman, for example, no - Ehrlichman - Ehrlichman is the best case - or Colson even, because they seem to be more tangential than Haldeman, right? H. Peterson: Both are more tangential than Haldeman - yes, sir. Pres. Nixon: Right, let's take Ehrlichman - let's say that the only testimony we have is something about (inaudible) - and so forth and so on - something about that Dean is supposed to have told him about the Liddy operation or something in March. All right - so is he a co-conspirator? Let's suppose you cannot get anybody to corroborate that - All right, then the question is, however, then that is one thing. If on the other hand - you wouldn't sack Ehrlichman for that? H. Peterson: Mr. President, I wouldn't prosecute Ehrlichman for that. Pres. Nixon: But you might sack him? H. Peterson: Yes sir. Pres. Nixon: Now the second point is, let us suppose, . . . H. Peterson: I mean if he were a junior partner in the Petersen-Nixon law firm out in Oskosh, I would not. But as senior advisor to the President of the United States I would. That is the difference. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Now you come to the other point. Suppose you have Dean in a position of where he makes this charge against Ehrlichman - no, what I am getting at - no, no, no my point is where you come in and say look I've got this charge - wait a minute this is unsubstantiated - but let us suppose you have witnesses who give testimony - and credible witnesses who give testimony - and credible witness - the other way? Then what would you do with Ehrlichman on that? You have heard - Colson apparently for example is supposed to know about that - and who else was there when they talked about the, the, ah? H. Peterson: Clemency? Pres. Nixon: What? Pat Gray oh talked H. Peterson: About - Pat Gray? Pres. Nixon: Leaving the country and all that business - Colson? H. Peterson: Liddy - Pres. Nixon: Was Liddy there? H. Peterson: Liddy gets his instructions from Dean. Pres. Nixon: Yeah, All right, so Dean . . . H. Peterson: Liddy passes the information on to Hunt. Pres. Nixon: Dean H. Peterson: Hunt tells us in the Grand Jury that Liddy said his principals said that I should so this. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. H. Peterson: Hunt doesn't know who the principals are Pres. Nixon: Right H. Peterson: . . . he says at this stage of the proceeding. Even if he does know, Pres. Nixon: Right H. Peterson: he knows only by hearsay Pres. Nixon: Right H. Peterson: . . . and probably not going to be admissible. Pres. Nixon: This is where you're going to get the corroboration. H. Peterson: I am not sure that we are. I am not sure that we are. Pres. Nixon: See that's where you give me the tough problem. But on the other hand it seems to me that on that basis the better way to handle it is for you to rather than immunizing Dean - you see if you immunize him for something that can't be corroborated, it's a straight deal between - you know what I mean. Well, I can see Mitchell saying - well John Dean was talking too much to Henry Petersen, and Petersen did this and Dean pulled the plug on him and he had no time to lie. You know? H. Peterson: It's possible. Pres. Nixon: And it's a bad rap, but ah, I'm (inaudible). H. Peterson: But we are not going to do that Mr. President - we are going to have . . . will have corroborative witnesses all along the line, Pres. Nixon: Yes, sure H. Peterson: But I see the problem and I feel - I think we are looking at it a little bit differently Pres. Nixon: Sure. H. Peterson: And I see the problem in two dimensions and, of course, I see it in this respect as a neophyte. Obviously you and Bill Rogers are much more experienced in these affairs than I, but maybe because I am a neophyte and one of the public I see it perhaps more clearly - at least from a different point of view. It seems to me Pres. Nixon: It's the taint H. Peterson: that it's just the things that they have done impairs you. Pres. Nixon: I understand. Understand and I agree with you on that. My point though now is a different one - it is the question of the immunity. That worries hell out of me. H. Peterson: Well that - Pres. Nixon: The immunity worries me for the reason that it just is . . . I don't think it's good to give it. I don't think in view of the fact that we had this hell of a flap - you know that is the reason Gray wasn't confirmed - because of Dean. H. Peterson: Well Mr. President Pres. Nixon: We go in and give it . . . H. Peterson: if I could only put your mind at ease - I have been arguing with those prosecutors for three days on this issue - Pres. Nixon: I think you've got to understand, I am not saying this because of Haldeman - I am not suggesting this about Strachan or a secretary or anybody else - no immunity all the way down the line, but it occurred to me that particularly in talking to Rogers said how in the hell can they give John Dean immunity after he's the guy that sunk Pat Gray. H. Peterson: Well if I sound like a devil's advocate - I am. I have been saying the same to the prosecutors - how in the hell can I immunize John Dean? Pres. Nixon: That's the point. Well, I feel it strongly - I mean - just understand I am not trying to protect anybody - I want the damn facts if you can get the facts from Dean and I don't care whether - H. Peterson: Mr. President, if I thought you were trying to protect somebody, I would have walked out Pres. Nixon: If he doesn't testify in open court - or anything of that sort it doesn't make any difference - I am going to make my decision on the basis of what you tell me Dean has told you and - just a little feel of the whole thing. But I've got to do it my way. H. Peterson: I know - no problem with that. Pres. Nixon: I've got to get (inaudible) handle on it so what I am going to do is this - when charges are made - if your charge is made that certain co-conspirators, and so forth and so on - out! - even when they are unindicted - out, out - so that takes care of that. But that is the time to do it, and I am going to say that - oh, I am not going to use your technical terms - H. Peterson: Well that is understandable. Pres. Nixon: But I am just going to indicate that there must be cooperation, that if there is any evidence to indict anybody on . . . H. Peterson: Let me ask you this, Mr. President, what would you do if we filed indictment against Magruder, hypothetically, and Pres. Nixon: Yeah - Magruder or Dean? H. Peterson: Magruder Pres. Nixon: Magruder - oh you have indicted him. H. Peterson: To which he is going to plead, and we named as unindicted co- conspirators everybody but Haldeman and Ehrlichman - never mind that the variation improves between them for the moment - Pres. Nixon: That you would name Colson for example? H. Peterson: Well I don't know about Colson - Colson is again peripheral, but Mitchell, LaRue, Mardian - what-have-you . . . Pres. Nixon: Colson was a big fish in my opinion. H. Peterson: Yeah, and a Pres. Nixon: Would you name Dean for example? H. Peterson: Oh yes. Pres. Nixon: Oh yes he was - H. Peterson: And we name all of those people. We leave out Haldeman and Ehrlichman. Now one of the things we had thought about - Pres. Nixon: I get your point H. Peterson: leaving them out was to give you time and room to maneuver with respect to the two of them. Pres. Nixon: Let me ask you - can I ask you - talking in the President's office H. Peterson: Yes sir. [Sets up appointment - had to take time out to sign some papers] Pres. Nixon: You see we've got to run the government too (inaudible). Pres. Nixon: You mean if Haldeman and Ehrlichman leave you will not indict them? H. Peterson: No sir, I didn't say that. Pres. Nixon: That would be a strange (inaudible). H. Peterson: No - it was not a question of that - it was a question of whether or not they were publicly identified in that pleading at that time. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. H. Peterson: And, well, for example, as a scenario - that comes out and you say - Pres. Nixon: (inaudible) H. Peterson: this is a shocking revelation Pres. Nixon: Yeah. H. Peterson: Is a consequence of that I have consulted and I have just decided to clear out everybody here who might have had - and as, a consequence Mr. Ehrlichman and Mr. Haldeman are going. Thereafter, we would proceed with the evidence wherever it took us. That is what we were thinking about to be perfectly honest with you. Pres. Nixon: Well you really ought to include them (inaudible) if you include the others. H. Peterson: Well Pres. Nixon: Oh, you don't want names in the indictment of Magruder. H. Peterson: That's right - unless we were able to go forward. Well, I don't want to belabor the point - I have made it clear that my view that I think they have made you very very vulnerable. I think they have made you wittingly or unwittingly very very vulnerable to rather severe criticism because of their actions. At least in public forums they eroded confidence in the office of the Presidency by their actions. Well you know it, I don't have to belabor it herb Pres. Nixon: Well, let's begin with this proposition. Let's not get in the wicket where we've got Dean in an immunity position. He'll talk. He'll talk. H. Peterson: Well that's another thing. Have you decided to accept Dean's resignation? Pres. Nixon: No, I have decided I have to treat them all the same. H. Peterson: I was going to say that would be terrible the effect is he would be out talking to the Press immediately. Pres. Nixon: On no, no, no - I told Dean I was going to handle them all the same (inaudible) - no that would be unfair. H. Peterson: I agree. Pres. Nixon: Absolutely. H. Peterson: I agree. Pres. Nixon: No, No, I talked to Dean about it - he said well he would do it if they did it too. He would like to do it if they did too, and I said well we are not going to do it on a conditional basis - I said stay on until we see what happens. No, I am not going to condemn Dean until he has a chance to present himself. No he is in exactly the same position they are in. H. Peterson: Alright. O.K. Pres. Nixon: You see that's the point: see I put all three in the same bag. H. Peterson: Very good. Pres. Nixon: How does that sound to you? Do you see what I mean? H. Peterson: Yes, indeed Pres. Nixon: So they have the same rule and if Strachan comes in, I am not going to throw Strachan out simply because he's been down before the Grand Jury. H. Peterson: No - I agree with that. Pres. Nixon: If you put his name in that indictment, I'm going to throw him out. H. Peterson: Well you know Strachan right at this point is debating whether he wants to be a potential defendant or a witness. Pres. Nixon: You've got him down there now haven't you? H. Peterson: Well, he's not down there now - his lawyer called around noon time and we told him go back and talk to your client and let us know one way or another. Pres. Nixon: Right. (pause) Oh you mean you're not covering the immunity thing there? H. Peterson: No - but we have to distinguish between variations of immunity. Pres. Nixon: What? H. Peterson: In all probability there is not enough evidence to implicate Strachan as a - Pres. Nixon: Principal H. Peterson: principal. There may be some evidence to reflect some degree of culpability, but he is at least at this point in our judgment a fringe character. The type of person where we would not have to formally immunize him - we would say look, Pres. Nixon: Yeah. H. Peterson: you are a witness rather than a defendant - tell us what you know. Pres. Nixon: What you mean - you are telling him you will not prosecute him? H. Peterson: That's right but it is distinguished from formal immunity which requires - Pres. Nixon: Oh, I see . . . H. Peterson: a filing in court. Pres. Nixon: What you say - Look we are having you here as a witness and we want you to talk. H. Peterson: That is described as immunity by estoppel. Pres. Nixon: I see, I see - that's fair enough. H. Peterson: That is really the prosecutor's bargain. Pres. Nixon: That is much better basically than immunity - let me say I am not, I guess my point on Dean is a matter of principle - it is a question of the fact that I am not trying to do Dean in - I would like to see him save himself but I think find a way to do it without - if you go the immunity route I think we are going to catch holy hell for it. H. Peterson: Scares hell out of me. Pres. Nixon: Rogers says (expletive removed) he says "tell Petersen (expletive removed) if you give them immunity here - he sees (inaudible) the Gray thing and all the rest -Dean is." Whatever area we think Dean is in, in the public mind, he is a big shot. Ervin thinks he is a big shot, the whole Senate Judiciary Committee - Dean is the guy that the whole Executive Privilege thing is about. So we give him immunity? I hadn't thought about it when you first talked about it. H. Peterson: Sounds . . . Pres. Nixon: But you must have thought about it. H. Peterson: I have - indeed. It is the toughest decision I have facing me. Pres. Nixon: Well what the hell - he can talk without any immunity can't he? Oh I guess if he is a defendant he wouldn't talk to you. H. Peterson: That's right. Pres. Nixon: (inaudible) of course he wouldn't (inaudible). Is that your problem? H. Peterson: You know if I get - yes - of course even if I come up with a lesser charge that damn Sirica is just liable to blast hell out of all of us to prevent him to plead even to a lesser charge. The ideal position would be the same as Magruder - you plead to one count felony indictment - take your chances. Pres. Nixon: That is what Magruder agreed to plead to? H. Peterson: That's right. Pres. Nixon: To one count felony indictment. H. Peterson: And that's what we are trying to work out with Dean and that's where the . . . Pres. Nixon: (inaudible) H. Peterson: Five years - max. Pres. Nixon: Five years - Out in two years? H. Peterson: Probably Pres. Nixon: That's the way it works, isn't it? H. Peterson: Yes Sir. Pres. Nixon: Dean's lawyers say (inaudible) H. Peterson: Dean's lawyers say we will try this whole damn Administration. Pres. Nixon: Huh? H. Peterson: They say we'll try this whole Administration. Pres. Nixon: Yeah, I know. I heard that. So that puts you in a hard spot. H. Peterson: That's right. I don't know, I am just aghast at the whole damn thing and you must be too. Because I see no rhyme, reason - Pres. Nixon: Slightly H. Peterson: anything to. Pres. Nixon: Yeah - for all this treatment for this? H. Peterson: And you know, I look at John Mitchell and I have admired him - and Pres. Nixon: Yeah - I know - good man. H. Peterson: and I'm just shocked. Pres. Nixon: But what happened we know is this: These jackasses got off . . . see this Liddy is crazy and Hunt and that whole bunch conducted this (inaudible) Mitchell wasn't minding the store and Magruder is a weak fellow - and the damn thing - and then afterwards they compounded it by what happened afterwards. H. Peterson: That's right. Pres. Nixon: They were caught in it and they said - Oh we can't and basically they were trying to protect Mitchell - let's face it. You know that. H. Peterson: Well, you know LaRue broke down and cried like a baby yesterday. Pres. Nixon: He did? That's too bad. H. Peterson: He was not so bad on admitting the obstruction of justice and subornation. Resigned, said he'd probably plead - said he didn't even think it worthwhile to bring a lawyer with him - ah, Pres. Nixon: He had (inaudible) H. Peterson: Not fully he broke down but when it came to testifying about John Mitchell he just broke down and started to cry. It is a terrible thing . . . Pres. Nixon: (inaudible) as we all do, but we are going to do the right thing. Don't you worry about that. I am just trying to do the right thing in the way that is. H. Peterson: Mr. President, if I didn't have confidence in you - I wouldn't be here. Pres. Nixon: Yeah H. Peterson: You know - Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Did we do any good on the Liddy call? H. Peterson: I don't know - Maroulis, Pres. Nixon: (inaudible) H. Peterson: his lawyer, flew down Pres. Nixon: (inaudible) H. Peterson: and we had Liddy brought over to a cell block of DC Court and made him available - and that was yesterday and of course I am sure Liddy is thinking it over but - we'll see. That man is a mental case . . . (inaudible) H. Peterson: I guess Bill Rogers was shocked too? (Pause) God Almighty. Pres. Nixon: Bill - I think everybody is shocked, but we are in it. So what do you do? In this thing - in these things - you've got them, you handle them and go on to something else - that's what we are going to do. H. Peterson: Damn, I admire your strength. I tell you. Pres. Nixon: Well, that's what we are here for. H. Peterson: Well I know but I've been around government long enough. Pres. Nixon: Frankly, the Dean thing troubles the hell out of me - I would like in one sense I would like to see the poor bastard you know, out of it and in another sense I think the immunity thing scares me to death. H. Peterson: Well it does me too. I agree. Pres. Nixon: How shall we leave that? You will go back and - you haven't made a decision then? H. Peterson: Well we're still negotiating. Pres. Nixon: You are going to try to see if you can get it another way - H. Peterson: That's right - that solves the problem for me and if . . . Pres. Nixon: But you may not be able to and then we will have to get Dean. He is the only one, so - otherwise you go the other way. H. Peterson: Yeah. Incidentally. I talked with Pat Gray again Pres. Nixon: Yeah H. Peterson: I went back again today Pres. Nixon: Do you think you can put that piece together? H. Peterson: Yes sir - I'll tell you what happened. He said he met with Ehrlichman - in Ehrlichman's office - Dean was there and they told him they had some stuff in Hunt's of - See that was utterly unrelated to the Watergate Case. They gave him two manila envelopes that were sealed. He took them. He says, they said get rid of them. Dean doesn't say that. Dean says I didn't want to get rid of them so I gave them to Gray. But in any event, Gray took them back, and I said Pat where are they, and he said I hurried them. And I said - Pres. Nixon: He burned them? H. Peterson: I said that's terrible. Pres. Nixon: Unrelated - only thing he can say was - he did it because it was political stuff I suppose? H. Peterson: Well, you know, the cynics are not going to believe it was unrelated. Pres. Nixon: Oh yes of course. H. Peterson: I said, did you read it? Pres. Nixon: Who handed it to him, Dean? Who knows the contents? H. Peterson: Dean and Ehrlichman. Dean - Ray says he never looked at it - never read it. Pres. Nixon: Did Dean? - did we ask Dean what the contents were? H. Peterson: I didn't ask Dean because he said it was Pres. Nixon: Did anybody? H. Peterson: Not at this point. We'll have to get to that obviously. Pres. Nixon: Sure. Dumb damn thing to do. H. Peterson: I think it is incredible and I just Pres. Nixon: Why didn't he just put it (inaudible) H. Peterson: I said Pat why did you do it. Pres. Nixon: Pat's naive. H. Peterson: He said - well, I suppose because I took them at their word. ------------------------- Apparently someone brought in a statement ------------------------- Pres. Nixon: (Inaudible) Oh this is a (inaudible) Senate Select Committee. Let me read it to you if you can (inaudible) it for me a little. "For several weeks Senator Ervin and Senator Baker and their counsel have been in contact with White House representatives, Mr. Ehrlichman and Mr. Garment. They have been talking about ground rules to preserve the separation of powers without stressing facts. I believe that the Committee ground rules that have been adopted totally preserve the doctrine. They provided the appearance by a witness named - in the first instance to be in executive session if appropriate. Second, the executive privilege would be expressly preserved (inaudible) proceeding would be televised (inaudible) . . . that has never been a central issue especially since the separation of powers problem is otherwise solved." (inaudible) Does that sound right to you? H. Peterson: Yes sir. Pres. Nixon: Forthcoming and so forth, and so forth? All White House staff will appear and testify under oath and (inaudible) all proper questions fully as far as I am concerned. Second announcement - "When the Watergate Case (inaudible) several weeks ago, I began to look into this matter as a result of printed stories in the press and private information which had come to me" - private information? H. Peterson: I don't think that ought to be there. Pres. Nixon: Basically it was the LaRue thing - not the LaRue - but the McCord thing that really set my invest . . . that is when I started to work with my. H. Peterson: I don't see how you can say private information that came to you without Pres. Nixon: Yeah H. Peterson: Almost becoming personally involved - at least as a result of a witness. Pres. Nixon: As a result of some very serious charges that were H. Peterson: Yes, I think that has to be modified. (noise of paper being moved around - obviously the President was working on the statement) Pres. Nixon: We could say that I - what was the term we used? - this says real progress has been made - that isn't very good - what is the term that we wanted to say about significant developments? H. Peterson: Significant developments is a term - Pres. Nixon: Any person in the Executive Branch who is indicted by the Grand Jury my policy would be to immediately suspend him. If he is convicted he would be automatically discharged. No person in past or present positions of importance can (inaudible) the prosecution. H. Peterson: I don't think you ought to say that Mr. President. I mean, I think that is fine for you and I to share your concerns on that, but to state that publicly seems to me will have tendency to prevent people from coming in. In effect, we will be right back to where we were without the immunity statute - where the Fifth Amendment is a complete bar. Now even if we never utilize immunity the fact that it is there and can be used to strip them of the Fifth Amendment rights is a terrible important tactic to have available. That phrase in there takes that tactic away from Us. Pres. Nixon: The tactic of? H. Peterson: of immunity Pres. Nixon: This doesn't refer to. H. Peterson: For example, we might want to immunize Strachan Pres. Nixon: Well no, no - H. Peterson: Well then you get into a question of who is a person of importance - Washington Post may very well think that Strachan is a person of importance. Anybody who works at the White House is a person of importance as distinguished from - minor underlings so far as you are concerned. Pres. Nixon: Should we say major government employees? Government employees holding major positions - how is that? H. Peterson: I would prefer that we not say it. Pres. Nixon: Well I am just trying to cover my tracks on the Dean thing - that is all. H. Peterson: Yes. Pres. Nixon: And if he is - then that is the U.S. Attorney's job. H. Peterson: But that is a sophisticated point isn't it? Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Sure, we could say that Dean was let off? Oooh H. Peterson: Oh, it is a sophisticated point after the fact but at this point in time in conjunction with this statement it is going to take a rather astute reporter to raise it. Is immunity going to be utilized? - the question is easily defended - you know - that is a prosecutorial tactic and that will be handled by the prosecutors if and when it is necessary. Pres. Nixon: Right. H. Peterson: You could say I would hope Pres. Nixon: Yeah H. Peterson: That no significant figures would be immunized Pres. Nixon: I express my - I want to put something - many of you know - I would hope - what could I say? I would hope any major - any official holding a major position, ah H. Peterson: I have expressed my concern Pres. Nixon: My - I express my view H. Peterson: To the Department of Justice Pres. Nixon: to the Department of Justice that no person, that it is my expressed view to the Dept. that no persons should be immunized. H. Peterson: No - that is too strong. Pres. Nixon: Huh? H. Peterson: That is too strong. That's a double entendre if you like - Pres. Nixon: Alright - what would you say then? H. Peterson: In effect that says that you are taking away a prosecutorial tool from them. Pres. Nixon: I express my view to the appropriate authorities shall we say - H. Peterson: That would weaken it Pres. Nixon: to the appropriate authorities that I do not favor - H. Peterson: I have expressed my hope to the appropriate authorities that it would not be necessary to immunize any major official in order to develop a prosecutable case. Pres. Nixon: Ok - I've got it Henry - otherwise it is nothing new - (inaudible) through the appropriate ways - that all White House especially are expected to cooperate fully - we said that - with the U. S. Dept. H. Peterson: With the prosecution Pres. Nixon: With the prosecution H. Peterson: With the prosecution team. Pres. Nixon: With the prosecution team. It says I have (inaudible) an occasion to attempt to pass the word to others who might be able to help to (inaudible) cooperation. I don't that means anything H. Peterson: I don't think that means anything and I think it says too much. Pres. Nixon: Yes. Pres. Nixon: Yeah - well what you are in effect saying to me - as I say - I want to be very clear on the Haldeman/Ehrlichman thing. That if they were left out of the non-indictable list it gives me a little running room. I want to be very clear - that understood? H. Peterson: That's right, that's right. Pres. Nixon: It doesn't mean that they aren't eventually be indicted if you get the facts. H. Peterson: That's right Pres. Nixon: But it does mean that they have an oppor . . . they aren't canned as a result of the fact - that is what we are really getting down to isn't it you would have to put Dean on that list wouldn't you? H. Peterson: Yes Sir Pres. Nixon: I guess you would have to with everything with him because basically Magruder is going to name him H. Peterson: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Hmp H. Peterson: And, if we get down to. Pres. Nixon: Magruder is not naming Haldeman and Ehrlichman though. That is the problem is it? H. Peterson: Yes but he does - but not in firsthand sense Pres. Nixon: Only by hearsay H. Peterson: But you see - if he makes that statement in open court - Pres. Nixon: Yeah, I get it H. Peterson: It seems to me it makes your practical difficulties just as severe as if we had named him in the first place. Pres. Nixon: Well I am glad to get this kind of stuff so I get a clear view of everything - what the options arc H. Peterson: And if we frankly - if we think that Sirica is going to elicit that kind of statement we will include him in the charge to the extent that we can. Pres. Nixon: Yeah - sure you don't want to. H. Peterson: Subject only to the fact that we can corroborate it later on. Pres. Nixon: Timing now. What about Magruder - you don't expect him tomorrow? H. Peterson: Well I told them . . . Probably not today, but I guarantee you at least twelve hours notice. Pres. Nixon: Can you give me that much? H. Peterson: I will guarantee you that. I will hold it up to make certain you get it. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. The only - Yeah. On the other hand I suppose you should say (inaudible) story - it got a hell of a big play. H. Peterson: I didn't see it. Pres. Nixon: And other stories that are not so likely to (inaudible) could, could - everything is likely to blow around here. But at least you give me the - there is nothing in this that we irritate the fact that do we (inaudible) til down there in that court we know this damn (inaudible). H. Peterson: That's right Pres. Nixon: So basically we are in a pretty good position to say - that except as I said I don't want the Washington Post to break this case. H. Peterson: That's right. We don't either. Pres. Nixon: I want the Department of Justice - and, frankly, the White House - because as you can see we'll cooperate (inaudible). Pres. Nixon: OK - I can see what you mean. You would anticipate then that if you didn't include Haldeman and Ehrlichman in your general thing that Sirica will question the defendant - Magruder - and he then will bring in - H. Peterson: If he brings that out - if we think that is a real possibility then we will have to decide whether or not as a matter of conscience and professional ethics we can put them in. If we can answer that yes - then we will put them in. If on the other hand, we think there is no basis for it - even if Sirica does bring out the hearsay - we will just have to take the knuckle for it. Pres. Nixon: Sure - which is basically what Sirica wants. Colson - I think we should know about him too. H. Peterson: Well, Pres. Nixon: Not yet, huh? H. Peterson: Well, Bittman went to Colson to urge leniency - Colson then got in touch with Ehrlichman and Dean. Ehrlichman is alleged to have said - Pres. Nixon: Make no commitments H. Peterson: we'll do the best we can - make no commitments. Then thereafter you know apparently money flows - or so we are told - whether there is any relevancy or relationship remains to be determined. Pres. Nixon: What did Bittman want? H. Peterson: Well apparently the funds, but that remains to be developed - ah, Dorothy Hunt was, according to McCord, the intermediary the leniency thing (inaudible) Pres. Nixon: Right. H. Peterson: And another intermediary was LaRue and LaRue used the alias of Baker - two aliases - one was Baker and I have forgotten the other one, for the transmittal of money. One of the things that concerns me in this area and you know again an area in which I may have made a mistake earlier in the game was with respect to Kalmbach. Now I understand he is your personal lawyer - is that a fact? Pres. Nixon: Yes, yes - very capable guy. (inaudible) - as I understand - they called and said raise some money for the (inaudible) and so forth. I am sure he was no damn coconspirator. (inaudible) after the campaign. H. Peterson: Here's one thing - in the earlier stages of the proceedings when they had Segretti in the Grand Jury Pres. Nixon: Yeah. H. Peterson: I told Silbert - no - damn it Silbert keep your eye on the mark - we are investigating Watergate - we are not investigating the whole damn realm of politics and I don't want you questioning him about the President's lawyer. Pres. Nixon: Right H. Peterson: Well, he didn't. Well now Kalmbach comes up and you heard on the news I am sure today - he apparently is going to be called by the Senate Committee - but he also comes up in this investigation with respect to actually Kalmbach raising money - or passing on money at Mitchell's direction for the co- conspirators - So we are going - Pres. Nixon: Sure H. Peterson: to have Kalmbach back into the Grand Jury. Pres. Nixon: Well in that instance, I suppose there you've got to prove what he thought he was raising it for. H. Peterson: Well, even if he didn't know or he was misled - the fact that he Pres. Nixon: (inaudible) H. Peterson: did at the time we may very well end up with him being a witness. Pres. Nixon: Damn right - oh I know that. I would seriously - I mean. And again on that particular count - I guess you were the one, I think who said the question is motive - what they raised the money for. H. Peterson: That's right Pres. Nixon: If you are trying to help them out with their defense - that is one thing - but if you are helping them out to keep them quiet that is a hell of (inaudible) - that is an obstruction job. H. Peterson: That's right - you know if you are acting out of Christian charity - Pres. Nixon: Right H. Peterson: that is fine. Pres. Nixon: That would be Mitchell's defense on that. H. Peterson: Of course all the inferences run the other way and that is a hell of a defense to have to put to the Jury. Pres. Nixon: Well I guess you have given me enough to chew on here - whether I get something out today and we'll know how - about it tonight - I'll see - I may have a little bit of time. You don't think that you are going to indict sometime today. H. Peterson: I will be glad to give you twelve hours notice. Nothing is going to happen today I am certain - even if we get an agreement today - you know I can still hold it off a day. Pres. Nixon: Yeah - you might hold if off even tomorrow, huh? H. Peterson: That's right. If we have to go see Ervin and Sirica - both of them - it may very well take a full day before we can get both things accomplished. Pres. Nixon: I've got to accept a big huge schedule tomorrow - energy message, and so forth, and so forth, and I don't want to tell you to hold it off except apparently it is going to take you some time anyway - I mean there is always a chance of leaks - leaks aren't going to mean much - H. Peterson: There are so many i's to dot and t's to cross on this thing - when you talk about holding off a day or two if doesn't make that much difference. Pres. Nixon: Except leaks - what do you think on (inaudible)? H. Peterson: I think it is terribly important Pres. Nixon: Get out front? H. Peterson: for you to get out front on this thing - irrespective of Pres. Nixon: Even with a statement like this that doesn't say much. Well cooperating with Ervin but that's H. Peterson: It says that - that is significant news. I think it is significant that it reflects that you are taking a personal interest in it - I think it is significant that you say there are significant developments which means you are personally informed and not only have endorsed what the prosecution is doing. It certainly is not significant in terms of evidentiary facts but we are never going to be in a position to do that anyway unless the public exposure in the court. You know there is another dimension, Mr. President. These fellows Magruder, Dean have talked to us - they'd be less than human if they didn't watch to see if the system was surviving the test - so there is another reason for their delay. Conceivably they say well this may be too strong for the Department of Justice or the President - or the people at the White House - they're not going to have the courage to face up to this - let's wait and see what happens and if we don't see some movement then our bargaining position will become increasingly tougher day by day by day. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. (inaudible) - keep in my mind - (inaudible) get the damn thing over with - and I know the trials of Mitchell and all these people will take a long time - (inaudible) - Mitchell will never plead guilty, never. Fight it all the way down the line. (inaudible) What would you do if you were Mitchell? H. Peterson: I think I would probably go to Saudi Arabia to tell you the truth. Pres. Nixon: Poison H. Peterson: When I think the former Attorney General of the United States being subject to criminal trial is just - Pres. Nixon: For obstruction of justice - not the bugging - the obstruction of justice. H. Peterson: It is just terrible. Pres. Nixon: OK - alright - thanks for your help. I'll see if I can work something out today and if I don't, maybe tomorrow. We'll see about it. H. Peterson: Thank you. Have a good day Mr. President. Pres. Nixon: Yep - we'll try.